Author Topic: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty  (Read 10500 times)

Offline Shen Yuan

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Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« on: December 22, 2010, 06:04:23 PM »
Foreword

The following will be written less for Vega players, and more for others, so that they can beat Vega. Why? Vega is unpopular here, and I can only think of two players who want to take him to the top, and the only way I and these two players can really improve, is to tell everyone else how to hit us as hard as possible, so we can learn to hit back even harder... ... if we can, since Vega already hits so hard. Lol.

Bio

The mad Catalonian Noble. He had a Spanish mom who married again to an ugly Spanish Stepdad because the daddy was rich as hell.

When our clawed warrior was still a teen he learnt bullfighting, and then he went to Japan to learn Ninjitsu. That suited his natural speed and grace really well. When he returned, he could speak Japanese and he fought and dominated in the Spanish underground fights, deep in the shadows of Catalonia.

One day the ugly step dad killed his wife. We don't know why. Our masked warrior grew crazy with rage and that day he wasn't quite beautiful. So he killed the man and tasted his blood and developed a personality disorder or something. Not quite sure how that works.

He turned nobleman by day, and mad masked killer by night.

Bison of Shadaloo grew impressed of Vega's skills, and hired Vega. Vega saw its as a good oppurtunity to further his inscrutable purposes, and till this very day, Vega looks over all assasinations.

He used to fight bulls a lot but he doesn't do it anymore, because Catalonia wanted to be autonomous and to enforce their stand they banned bullfighting last year.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:50:08 PM by Shen Yuan »

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2010, 12:12:51 AM »
If you want to play Vega, know these:

You must play with poor defensive options. So you must like to block, and you must learn not panic, but enjoy the rhythmic thumping you'd hear in blockstrings.

You must enjoy walking quickly, everywhere you go.

You must like short, quick and weird jumps, and god like jump-ins.

You must acknowledge your poor anti-air options. So you must learn two to three anti-air's for each match-up, and the one you use will depend on how your opponent jumps in.

You must enjoy the sweetness of his blood curdling screams.

You must appreciate beauty.

You must master throw mixups, and you MUST stop your instincts from making you try cross ups, because you have NO cross-ups. Well you have one but its a very weird cross-up.

You must appreciate big damage.

And you must never, ever give up. Vega is NOT easy. I know he looks simple, but really, I don't know why I keep playing difficult characters that look silly at higher level play.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 12:08:32 PM by Shen Yuan »

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2010, 12:36:26 AM »
Vega's defense, and how to beat it.

Vega players should make an effort to be familiar with the opponent's blockstrings, to know when they might perform the following options.

Backdash: Vega's backdash is pretty good actually. It recovers really fast so option selects which involve the use of slow sweeps to catch backdash would get backdashed!

To beat: Catch the backdash with OS. Learn your character properly to know what I mean.

Jump up/back: You might want to press a HP depending on the matchup, but in general, throw attempts will get hit because the opponent would be standing.

To beat: Do your blockstrings properly so that he cant jump back. Like for e.g. Ken crlpcrlpcr.mk cant be jumped. know that kinda shit. A lot of players don't know this well so people like mango and leslie sagat get to jump back all day and we swear over and over they are turtles.

Ok enough with the universal options. Here are his special options

Reversal Scarlet Terror: Vulnerable to normals but invulnerable to throws. So use it only in the middle of blockstrings when you know that they are going to throw you or do a cr.mp or whatever to catch your tech. It's 5 frames, and that's really fast. So you would, at the very least, get a trade. And a trade with this move is ALWAYS good on the ground.

Beat it: Block or just finish the blockstring as previously mentioned.

Backflip: Matchup dependent. Great against SPDs and Command grabs. Great against characters with shitty sweeps and walk speeds. And great against option selects; if Akuma knocks you down and does J.HK OS Sweep the sweep would whiff and you get away :D

Beat it: Chase it if you can. Really common sense.

FA lvl1 (blocked) backdash: This is so good. If it counter hits, good damage. If it's blocked, you are back at a good distance. yeah baby.

Beat it: Throw. Hard to throw in an armour breaker if its that quick. If you get it its surely tyco or im just being really obvious. But it's likely the former.

cr.LP cr.MP EX FBA: This is really hard to mash out, so you need to do it at the moment you anticipate the blockstring to end. If not just do cr.LP EX FBA. Even if it's blocked you get out :D

Beat it: Finish your blockstring

st.HK: IMO his best move to mash. It's four frames, which is faster than ST, and the speed of your cr.LP. Ridiculous for a heavy attack if you ask me. And mash this profusely, because if the first hit trades, you end up with so much advantage you get a free st.HK anyway. 3 hit combo! Becareful -9 on block so some people can punish you.

Beat it: Finish your blockstring, or if you can, block it and punish. -9 baby. But that's really hard.

reverse kara throw: Against players who like to cr.lp cr.lp cr.lp then walk up throw. Bao tiok. Then you throw them into corner.

Beat it: Finish your blockstring with a low.

Ultra 2: Its good. Use it once in a while. You need it. Its the guys fault if he eats it. And when you land it do a tyco smile.

Beat it: Block it. SO EASY.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 03:28:00 PM by Shen Yuan »

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2010, 12:37:56 AM »
Vega's offense and how to defend against it.

The ROLL

All roll's are -2 on block and are great moves for sending the opponent straight into the corner. Chip damage off this is excellent as well. After that, you really need to go back and test what the opponent can do after that, and what YOU can do to beat what the opponent can do after that. And if they choose to do nothing, walk up to cr.mk or kara throw them.

For example.

Vs Guile

If guile blocks it, and does sonic boom HP and everything, cr.mp and st.HK will definitely win. He can only do ultra or flash kick to win.

Vs Ryu

If Ryu does sweep or cr.MK, cosmic heel will win. But if he does fireball, you lose. St.HK wins all of that.

Vs Sagat

If sagat presses anything except cr.lp, its a free cosmic heel. Yes st.HK and MK both lose. nowadays sagats love to walk back of jump back. To beat the former, walk forward and cr.mk. If they jump back, just sit there and then EXFBA them on reaction. EX FBA immediately to catch backdash.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:50:57 PM by Shen Yuan »

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2010, 12:39:01 AM »
Combos
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 12:13:45 PM by Shen Yuan »

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2010, 12:40:01 AM »
I’d lay down here, what I think are the must-knows for claw’s matchups against most of the cast. Take them, and if you apply them correctly, I am positively sure that you would start winning and enjoying your worst matchups.

There would be no material that would amount to a comprehensive strategy against any character. Reason being, it would simply take too long to do so, because it would take too long to justify any of my judgements with empirical information, and furthermore, I’m not completely sure about every matchup myself.

Also, I would not explain any abstractions that have anything to do with the basics of the game, because ideas such as offense, defense, footsies or applying pressure would take several posts, or maybe even threads to deliver a rich and proper explanation.

Rufus:
I.   Rufus has problems dealing with jump fierce at a certain height and distance. Your claw would rip through his palms (cr.MP) and eat into his puddings and blubberings.
II.   A far standing middle kick always beats his roll and tornado.
III.   So he would jump from ¾ screen. To beat that do jump back strong at the maximum distance of his jump. Scarlet terror is a consistent anti-air, but it trades with dive kick from that distance. Still, it is in your favour, since you get him on the ground.
IV.   Messiah kick and all it’s follow ups get trashed by Heavy Kick and EX Scarlet Terror. Even if he does his Light Kick followup, it will not hit; in fact both characters would zip through each other, allowing Claw to deliver a beautiful cr.MP into a stunning Izuna.
V.   In defense, claw’s jump back Fierce is very, very important. It forces him to do cr.mk or st.lk after a dive, which can be blocked, allowing you to earn a good distance from him to jump away.
VI.   Know all your un-jumpable blockstrings. The main anti-air against Rufus should not be Scarlet Terror or jump back Strong – it should be about not making him jump in the first place. This is very important, because if you put him in a blockstring, and you mess up, and he jumps, there is nothing you can do to prevent him from dive kicking. Further more, he could just kill you with that.
VII. Figure out the post-Izuna 50/50 against Rufus. After the Izuna, dash forward. If you jump at the earlies possible timing that would hit Rufus, you'd hit him at the BACK, allowing you to link H.P. Any later, you hit and land on the front. This, above anything, would make Rufus scared shit of you, because it really, really hurts. Claw is a high damage character. If he has a crossup in a matchup... GG.

Gief:
I.   Jump back Strong is a very important anti-air against Zangief. Do it from 6.5/8 screen away if you know he loves his J.HP.
II.   Zangief is very weak to Izuna. Either grab him directly, or steer close to him to make him Lariat, so that you could Ultra 2 or EX wall dive into Izuna yet again. It’s a good guessing game.
III.    If Zangief is knocked down at the corner, a meaty Izuna is free. Even if he backdashes it,  it’s a free hit anyway. Go for it.
IV:   st.hk is a good tool to push gief out with. Optimal distance is just right within his green/ex green hand distance. That way it is easy to block the hand and punish with st.hk (or a nice combo of your choice) and st.hk AAs quite a number of his jump ins (need to know the timing, and the distance. GO TEST). Watch our for his jump mk. (Neko)

Blanka:
I.   Stay just outside crouching strong. Over there, his jump Heavy Kick would never ever reach you unless he walks into your distance, where he is completely vulnerable to your vicious stabs. When his jump whiffs, go for a free blockstring or mixup.
II.   At that distance mentioned in I., bait for hop, slide or ball, and punish them on reaction.
III:  It is good to know that his U1 is air-throwable. If you are daring enough, backdash on his U1 activation (dodge that ground hit), then jump backwards and air throw. (Neko)

Bison:
I.   Stay outside the range of LK scissors kick. If he does any other scissors kick, you will block it and you must stab him. Bait for slide, EX psycho crusher and jump and punish them on reaction.
II.   A blocked EX psycho up close would give you a free EX Flying Barcelona Attack or a Splendid Claw (U2). And if you have neither Ultra not Super do a simple slide.
III.   Sit on the lead.

Ryu:
I.   To deal with J.HK stay out of it’s range. That’s about ¾ Screen.
II.   To deal with you staying out of J.HK distance, he would start throwing fireballs. Mix up between jumping up and forward. And at times, if you are very, very certain, do a J.HK from that distance. Yes it would reach him. Claw’s Jump attacks have good range.
III.   Wall dives are great against shotos.
IV.   Learn to Focus Attack cr.MK and fireballs.
V.   After a Rolling Crystal Flash, a Cosmic Heel would win every normal except a single crouch jab. It will lose to Hadouken or Tatsu.
VI. If the Ryu keeps OS teching your throws with cr.mk or cr.mp, kara throw them on reaction. cr.mp can be cosmic heeled, but not that it is -4 on block don't do it often. A very good trick, is to use st.HP to catch OS throw techs; press the HP at the timing you use to throw a person after blockstun. (Neko + Yuan)

Ken:
I.   Same as Ryu, except for his step kick. Everytime he whiffs it, go for a kara throw or a free st.HK or cr.MP.
II. If the Ryu keeps OS teching your throws with cr.mk or cr.mp, kara throw them on reaction. cr.mp can be cosmic heeled, but not that it is -4 on block don't do it often. A very good trick, is to use st.HP to catch OS throw techs; press the HP at the timing you use to throw a person after blockstun. (Neko + Yuan)

Gouki:
I.   Punish his sweep with Cr.MP into EX wall dive.
II.   The second hit of far st.HK will whiff only if it’s blocked at maximum distance, and that’s really far away.
III.   Slide his air fireballs on reaction.
IV.   Flip kick as an anti-air is viable against him because it eats demon flips.
V.   Learn to EX Flying Barcelona Attack teleports on reaction.
VI.   Triple Kick Somersault can mess up his vortex; If he does an option select into sweep, you get away because the sweep will whiff.
VII.   Gouki’s tend to keep walking back in blockstrings. It’s a habit that people who play quick moving characters tend to develop.

Guile:
I. You walk forward, you jump, and just as you jump, guile does sonic boom. Being guile, it's unlikely that jump HP would hit.  But being claw, Guile can't cr.HP or st.HP your J.HP at that time and place. Your j.HPs hit box is ridiculous, and it hurts guile in the matchup.
II. If Guile sees you jump, and he does flash kick, Claw's jump HP might win. Know the distance. Force him to use the EX version. Burn his bar. Burn his hair (I h8 it).
III. If you see Guile squat, he is charging his only reliable anti-air against claw. this makes him immobile. This is a free chance for a roll, or a st.lk to start pressure. Good guiles would be less predictable with this, but over here, most guiles are.
IV. Guile is weak to wall dives. Learn to beat air-throw by pressing punch as soon as you gracefully leap off the wall, and you will get him. Steering just outside flash kick range will get the flash kick to whiff for a free and painful punish. -scratch-scratch-
V. Learn the Izuna loop at corner. It's literally FREE if he doesn't do flash kick. And even if he does, you will hit him with the fanning of the nails and blades. To do this at the corner, Izuna away from the corner, leaving claw with his back to the wall. Fly to the wall, after a bit of delay to do a MEATY izuna grab. But before the grab, you MUST steer to one side of guile, then back to the corner to make the flash kick whiff, so you can throw him again.
VI. Guile has a bigger back hitbox. Therefore it is easier to crossup Izuna him.
VII. After the Rolling Crystal Flash, cr.MP will win everthing Guile does except Ultra, Super, backdash and jump.
VIII. Guile's flash kick cannot be cancelled when blocked further out.

Viper:
I. Know the timing to catch uppercut, throw tech, backdash, ex seismo all at the same time. You should only lose to EX burning kick.
II. Know the distance to do a vertical jump HK to beat super jump.
III. At that distance, all burning kicks can be focused, and Viper will want to burning kick you if she cant win your pokes. Well she can't.
IV. Push her out with cr.MP and cr.MK. Force her to try to use thunder knuckles to try and compete. Whiff punish them for free. Force her to do a burning kicks and jump so that you can execute tip III. and II.
V. At the corner, do not tech. Eat throws a few times. Try to jump away if you can. A lot of vipers love to burning kick techers and kill them with ultra. But do not be too predictable with jumps because she can ultra that too.... and don't eat too many throws because they lead to crossups into ultra. Viper is crazy.
( Will add to it when free)
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 12:21:00 AM by Shen Yuan »

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2010, 12:41:40 AM »
-Reserved-

Offline Shen Yuan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2010, 12:43:02 AM »
-Reserved-

Offline nekorinSG

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2010, 09:59:07 AM »
Wah reserve so many threads. I'm meeting my client in town today. Hope time will allow me to pop by to test out Vega in Bugis  :D

Got only 1/2hr to go there to play. Too long never play le become sucky in yomi~ing and execution  :))

Initial Impressions based off 3games:

- CH:  Need quite a bit for me to get used to the new changes for CH. It was one of my most utilised pokes in vanilla and super. Not liking how punishable the move is though....

- c.MK: like the new 6 frames startup. Need some time to get used to it also

- FA crumple -> Air throw :  tested and is still there :3   Means Izuna setup -> Super is still workable  ;)

- Backdash: I like the new backdash. No longer I'll get delayed hit into a full ground combo. Most will be a delayed hit which resets Vega back with a good chance to block.

- Kara throw: Hmm, seems to me the distance is shorter a little bit, need to test more.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2010, 11:21:50 PM by nekorinSG »
As always, my victories are tinged with a hint of beauty. - Zhang He (DW)

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Offline uv

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2010, 10:03:15 PM »
For some reason I thought some pc bug got me logged into a beauty parlour forum. Those multiple reserved slots certainly didn't help. :D

After around 10 matches, my impression:

The nerf doesn't seem to affect my gameplay because first, I don't use cosmic heel to attack. I use it mostly to lunge forward (due to impatience), second, I don't use U2 to attack, I use it mostly to escape, as an anti-air, or to inflict the last chip damage to finish off. With U2 having more startup time now, I simply use it less often then, after all in vanilla, I hardly utilised ultra in my gameplay.

1) even with cosmic heel nerfed (slower recovery), if you can link CH-ST in SSF4 fairly easily, it should be of no concern to you here in SSF4-AE.
2) the pokes are as fast as SSF4, which suit my game, I like to poke.
3) thank god the FBAs are more or less same as SSF4 in terms of execution, also, the 3 different strengths still yield different heights of FBA, and I'm ok with the nerfed damage.
4) piece of mercury remains the same, great.
5) With 6-frame cmk now, I find it relatively much easier to link cmk-cmp-ex FBA. If you think it's easy to link cmk-cmp in SSF4, it's even easier in SSF4-AE.

No chance to test if ex-ST has invulnerability frame or how useful it is as an anti-air.

Overall, thus far, i love this AE-Vega. Hope I can say the saem 6 months later.





Offline nekorinSG

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 12:57:24 PM »
Played Vega more yesterday. Still can't get the timing of his BnB correctly, need to readjust to the AE timing by playing more lolx. Didn't get to test alot cuz I only get to play once every 1/2hr (put my card on the wrong machine with the pros, so my wait is longer lolx)

After playing with the experts yesterday, I've drawn some conclusions...

- Yun is a worse matchup for Vega than Rufus is. Too many safe moves on block make Yun unpunishable using Vega. Or maybe my matchup experience against Yun is just too low (only 2 matches against Yun nia, courtesy of Rchan :3)

- Without the safety net of the CH, Vega's footsie strategy is drawn more to his mks. (st.mk, c.mk, piece of mercury) The new 6 frame c.mk really does up the level of this new mid-range battle. CH can only be used after a bitten bait.


And... Raymus dun leave Vega~~~~~ we can still use Juri as sub~~ lolx.
As always, my victories are tinged with a hint of beauty. - Zhang He (DW)

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Offline Rchan

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 05:11:10 PM »
Played Vega more yesterday. Still can't get the timing of his BnB correctly, need to readjust to the AE timing by playing more lolx. Didn't get to test alot cuz I only get to play once every 1/2hr (put my card on the wrong machine with the pros, so my wait is longer lolx)

After playing with the experts yesterday, I've drawn some conclusions...

- Yun is a worse matchup for Vega than Rufus is. Too many safe moves on block make Yun unpunishable using Vega. Or maybe my matchup experience against Yun is just too low (only 2 matches against Yun nia, courtesy of Rchan :3)

- Without the safety net of the CH, Vega's footsie strategy is drawn more to his mks. (st.mk, c.mk, piece of mercury) The new 6 frame c.mk really does up the level of this new mid-range battle. CH can only be used after a bitten bait.


And... Raymus dun leave Vega~~~~~ we can still use Juri as sub~~ lolx.
yea i guess its tough . like rufus ... but rufus is harder i feel , non of rufus's move is punishable and rufus have a better dive kick to apply pressure .

i also got schooled by raymus on the 1st day by his vega .
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Offline Vintage_Sky

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2010, 01:54:30 PM »
Had a few rounds using Vega at AE. I don't really understand the nerf for U2 but I could still land a few.

And there's the cl.hp ->ex roll -> cr.mk -> FBA. Is the cr.mk a link? From the video [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRhbSDM26b0 [/youtube] of tatsu experimenting with the new combo, I think he missed the link but it should be possible.. Cosmic Heels is still safe I guess.
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Offline nekorinSG

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2010, 02:53:58 PM »
Had a few rounds using Vega at AE. I don't really understand the nerf for U2 but I could still land a few.

And there's the cl.hp ->ex roll -> cr.mk -> FBA. Is the cr.mk a link? From the video [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRhbSDM26b0 [/youtube] of tatsu experimenting with the new combo, I think he missed the link but it should be possible.. Cosmic Heels is still safe I guess.

Nerf for U2 as in it gains a few frames during it's startup making it slower.

ex.roll->c.mp->ex.fba is a link. dun think c.mk can combo.

Cosmic heel is no longer safe. Not sure why guile can't hit vega in the video but with the tests I've done and seen, cosmic heel is not safe on block as shown in the video.

Btw @vintage_sky: You on starhub? Most of the time I've met you online it lags like mad.  :(
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Offline luvselina

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Re: Beauty of Beauties, Beauty of Beauties; All is Beauty
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2010, 06:18:47 PM »

2) the pokes are as fast as SSF4, which suit my game, I like to poke.


sounds so wrong :P

and yea cosmic heel isn't safe on block. Plus the slower speed of the game gives pple even more time to react.