Frame Traps

[VintageSoul]

Hmm. That's what Vintage is saying. Immediately after +2 he spams throw and it whiffs. Dont know. Viper doesnt have any +2 moves besides c.MP. I would feint then throw...

Vintage go test again!

Just did a few quick tests and I suspect its some wierd hitbox thingy.

With Ryu vs Ryu, c.LP or c.MP (blocked) > Throw will result in a whiffed throw once every 10 times?

With Ryu vs Rufus c.LP or c.MP (blocked)> Throw almost never results in a whiffed throw.

With Bison (Dictator) vs both Rufus and Ryu, c.LP (blocked)> Throw almost always results in a whiffed throw.

Ryu's c.LP, c.MP and Bison's c.LP are all +2 on block. So yah its really really wierd that I'm not even getting consistent results when I use turbo buttons on LP + LK. Of course, we're talking about a 1 frame difference here, so even turbo buttons are not infallible.

Bottomline: It should be impossible for a blocked crouch LP followed with a throw with Ryu to result in a whiffed throw (assuming you're in range and the c.LP is not meaty). But I think anybody who has used Ryu before should've at least experienced it once or twice before (Tetra, you probably have experienced this with Dictator?).

So yah... something wierd is going on causing throws to whiff when they shouldn't, and I dunno the explanation.

is it that if opponent in guard stun, opponent can'tbe grab?

Or only neutral stat then can be grabbed.

Yeah, I think as a general rule you can only be thrown once *or after* you've entered a neutral state*.

Theoretically this means if I block Ryu's d.LP and he immediately throws, this should happen:

- Frame X Last frame of Ryu's recovery after d.LP: I am in block stun. I cannot be thrown.
- Frame X+1  Ryu has just recovered after d.LP and immediately starts a throw: I am in block stun (at -2). I cannot be thrown. Ryu is doing frame 1 of his throw start up.
- Frame X+2 Ryu is on the second frame of his throw start : I am in block stun (at -1). I cannot be thrown. Ryu is doing frame 2 of his throw start up.
- Frame X+3 Ryu is on the third frame of his throw start up which is the FIRST ACTIVE frame of the throw: I enter a neutral state (at -0). I can be thrown.

However, if you do it enough times, you will find that sometimes, you will *not* be thrown and the throw whiffs. Why this happens is beyond me.

*Neutral state is defined as "A state where you are able to control your character". So when you're in hit or block stun, on the ground, or being juggled, you cannot control your character... and you cannot be thrown.

[SY]

My god, Paul, u seem to know everything eh. How on earth would you have thought of all these? Can you come down Bugis more often. I wanna see how you make use of these frame traps etc etc. Cos I dun understand a single peanut balls about frames.

[Tetra]

Hey paul,

I think the reason is becos there is 2 active frames for throws.

Throw is active on the 3rd and 4th frame. Maybe that's what we are missing?

Also, not forgetting there are different range for different throws. Although on your example, both Ryu and Bison do have the same range for their throws. HMMM.

[Gackt]

Hey paul,

I think the reason is becos there is 2 active frames for throws.

Throw is active on the 3rd and 4th frame. Maybe that's what we are missing?

Also, not forgetting there are different range for different throws. Although on your example, both Ryu and Bison do have the same range for their throws. HMMM.

Is it because Bison's speed is faster?

[VintageSoul]

Hey paul,

I think the reason is becos there is 2 active frames for throws.

Throw is active on the 3rd and 4th frame. Maybe that's what we are missing?

Actually, that makes it even MORE confusing. If you think about it, the fact that throws are active on the 3rd and 4th frame should make it even *less* possible that a throw will whiff... but they still do.

Is it because Bison's speed is faster?

Nope. Walk or throw speed have nothing to do with it, because you're in throw range all the time for these particular set ups (so no need to walk), and because their throw speeds are the same.

My god, Paul, u seem to know everything eh. How on earth would you have thought of all these? Can you come down Bugis more often. I wanna see how you make use of these frame traps etc etc. Cos I dun understand a single peanut balls about frames.

I also wanna come down more bro, but work's been a bitch. Hopefully I can go down tommorow night, then we can have a good discussion, if you'd like.

[SY]

Ok sure thing pauley Paul Paul! I'll be down tonight(Friday). From around evening time till late night. See ya!

[g0mug0mu]

From vintage's post, I might be talking rubbish BUT been the FAT beast that rufus is, the cr.lp always hits on the first frame so our calculations is correct everytime. But with the slimmer ryu, cr.lp sometimes hits on the 2nd frame, which the frame advantage becomes +3 instead of +2. So 1/10 times poke throw miss on ryu.

Same for dictator, the cr.lp sometimes hits on the second active frame instead of the first so the throw whiff?

[VintageSoul]

From vintage's post, I might be talking rubbish BUT been the FAT beast that rufus is, the cr.lp always hits on the first frame so our calculations is correct everytime. But with the slimmer ryu, cr.lp sometimes hits on the 2nd frame, which the frame advantage becomes +3 instead of +2. So 1/10 times poke throw miss on ryu.

Same for dictator, the cr.lp sometimes hits on the second active frame instead of the first so the throw whiff?

Yeah, that's definitely one theory... Unfortunately its hard to confirm without actually seeing the hitboxes =\